DCU meta question

[petra]

Did I make up the term identity porn, or did I pick it up from somewhere/someone that I can't find at this point?

If I made it up, I feel like I should apologize to thingswithwings for having trouble defining it, which I've attempted again in the comments of the linked post. I know it when I see it, I suppose.

Comments

[hradzka]

Considering that the earliest public references I found googling are from 2006 (Gloss in comments, here, and Betty in a post here), and you've got documentation of usage in chat in 2005, that's quite possible.

I agree with your comment in that thread: if it's not you, my money is on Te, because that's totally a concept she'd run with.

[petra]

Thank you for the google-check.

My chatlogs suggest Te wasn't around a whole lot right when I started using the term, so either it's a good deal older than my cite or she didn't run into it till I used it at her.

[jamjar]

I remember us using the term when we were writing the whole Brucie/Nightwing, Dick Grayson/Batman thing.

And my definition of it, in my head at least, was that the identity stuff was the porn-- that for the characters, it was messing about with definitions of yourself in order to get your id, ego and super-ego off, in a really gratuitous way, and for the writers, it was about rolling around in all those different selves the characters could be.

It kind of overlaps with identitykink, except that seems more about roleplay, or about someone getting off on someone else's presented identity, and identity porn is about the person getting off on using their own presented identity (or identities).

[brownbetty]

I think Melannen's “role-playing as themselves” is pretty close, but judging by some of the recs, people there aren't understanding the concept (the way I do.)

[petra]

Yes, Melannen's definition feels right. There needs to be some element of not-the-whole-truth in it for me to feel like a story qualifies.

A clarification of range, which pre-dates my citations, feels like it deserves the term because of all the mask-slippage along the way, for example. The concept isn't just about exploring a new facet of one's identity, but about inhabiting it (role-playing it). I don't think treating it as the whole truth is necessary, but maybe acting as though it might be is. Maybe.

One of the terms someone else used for the Millionaire-verse early on was "the cosplay stories," and I rejected that immediately. It's not cosplay when the costums are theirs; they're not pretending to be anyone they aren't.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

So would Ms Fraser be form of identity porn? Though, honestly, Benton is a series of different filters that much of the time there'd be something of the sort going on.

[petra]

It would depend on how the story treated Ms Fraser. If Fraser was inhabiting her persona, reacting as she would, then maybe. The fact that one time he wore a dress doesn't get close enough for me to give it that label, especially in Fraser's case because there just isn't that much of a difference between Benton Fraser's normal behavior and Ms Fraser's normal behavior.

Parts of Resonant's American Way are identity porn, though--the parts where the roleplaying is the only way Ben can be himself.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Well, no, not if the story was limited to basically what was in the episode.

And yes, part of what is so charming about Ms Fraser is that she's very much like Benton. Just as a woman. Complete with ballistics calculations.

Interesting that Ms Fraser seems to know how to deal with men that Benton can't seem to utilize with women.

[petra]

Right, Ms Fraser and Benton aren't very different at all. That's part of why it's not identity porn to me--there's not a lot of edges to explore, or things that one really gets that the other doesn't.

Fraser knows how to deal with men. It's just that his rules for women are different, and we certainly don't see women hitting on Ms Fraser in canon.

[brownbetty]

I was thinking about identity porn, and I think part of it is that it works partly by allusion; it doesn't work to roleplay as something that hasn't been heavily freighted with meaning. I have this idea, too, that it's very post-modern in its treatment of the subject.

[petra]

Ooo, yes, good point. That's a big part of it, that it's not just RPing yourself-in-a-mood, but a Proper Noun aspect of yourself. So it's Admiral Naismith, not Miles Vorkosigan-in-a-manic-phase.

Most of the examples that really work for me are instances where the characters are more or less playing a role in canon anyway, and they extend that to the point of sex and then a bit beyond it.

As for po-mo, I never know where the definitions are, but I think you should definitely add the "role already freighted with meaning" thing to melannen's definition. I hadn't managed to articulate it, but now you've said it I can't think why not.

[melannen]

Hmm. Does identity porn need to extend to the point of sex to count for you? Because I've just been using it as a narrative kink that could have porn in it, or could be g-rated, or could be gen. But I tend to de-emphasize the sex in everything, so that could just be me.

I don't think the identity has to have a Proper Name, but, yeah, I think it needs to have some sort of -- oh, god, I'm about to use the word semiotics here, stop me - some sort of symbolism attached to it, so that it's both marked off as something separate, and, mrr, so people (reader/author/performer/observer) put extra meaning into it than what is specifically shown? And it also helps if it's a role that's more than just momentary - I think history is part of it. Allusion, like Betty said. Part of identity porn is pushing/breaking boundaries, so there needs to be something like a boundary to push against.

So, um, Miles Vorkosigan-in-a-manic-phase isn't identity porn, but Miles Vorkosigan-in-a-manic-phase deliberately playing as the unstable mad mutant stereotype from Barrayaran folklore might be, even if the role he's playing is Lord Miles? And the Sentinel fic that got rec'ced on kink_finders, where Jim plays butch with Blair and camp with his Army friends, and they both think of that as two separate roles he's playing, but he's Jim both ways, did read as identity porn to me, whereas as story about, oh, how he felt more pressure to conform to masculinity in Cascade than in the jungle wouldn't, necessarily.

[petra]

No, it doesn't actually have to have sex in it. I'm pretty sure I've written it without at some point. It does have to have either greater emotional closeness by the end or a sense that there *ought* to be, dammit.

Semiotics is a good word for this discussion, as "meaning" is a little weak. I think the sense of a specific identity with a history and boundaries is definitely part of what makes it *porn.* Porn is (sometimes) transgressive. This is doing something dirty/transgressive with identities, so there has to be a specific weight to the identity you're playing with.

Miles deliberately playing Mad Mutie Lord Miles could definitely count. I can see where Camp!Jim and Butch!Jim would be two definable selves, and the difference between camp and butch is its own sort of historical weight.

As with so many kinks, it's certainly possible to have something that's almost like the kink but not quite. Jim conforming to masculine standards might have elements of it, but if he's not pushing the boundaries, then probably that's not identity porn, no.

[jamjar]

I think for me, identityporn means that the person is getting their rocks off on it *somehow*, but not necessarily sexually. It's a release, it's a rush, which might be sexual, but isn't necessarily.

So for Miles, deliberately playing Mad Mutie Lord Miles would qualify because it's playing on his own manic side, and other people's expectations of crazy barrayans, and Barrayar's own expectations of a mutie-lord with the craziness of a vor and the alien-bizarreness of someone with more off-world blood in them than Barrayan...

It's a release and a rush because -and terrifying as the thought is- Miles spends most of his life holding but-- this is Miles being *restrained*, because of all those images of him. Playing Mad Mutie Lord Miles lets him indulge in other people's perceptions and *himself*, in a way he doesn't usually get to.

Which is fine for him, since he has a lot of other selves he can be indulging in instead, plus he can be distracted and focussing on this plot and that mission and defending his household against having his cook stolen by Alys and...

If that makes sense. That's how it feels to me, in my "I know it when I read it".

[petra]

So for you, there's more freedom in only being one aspect of oneself--or in playing a role that isn't really you, like Mad Mutie Lord Miles, and that's the rush of it?

Now I want to find a story that's borderline for me (or for melannen, who's done more reading) and see who defines it as fitting this definition in different ways. Playing the role to the hilt and getting away with things that complex-whole-self can't works for me, and it fits with some of the things I've written. I don't know if it's necessarily part of what my internal definition is. I'd need test cases to be sure.

[jamjar]

Not more freedom overall, but freedom to indulge in that sense. Just as giving in to one emotion and ignoring the rest -being angry, being sad, being happy- let's you indulge in that, gives you a particular kind of... hmm, energy is maybe the wrong word. Momentum might be better-- riding the tiger, surfing on that tidal wave. It won't get you everywhere you want to go, but if you can hold on, it'll maybe get you to that one particular place faster, blasting through any distractions or defenses.

And sometimes that particular place you're getting to is actual, old-fashioned, mutual-orgasms-yay! sex, so by playing Brucie with Nightwing, Bruce gets to have something, gets to be something fun and light and oh-so-appreciative of Nightwing, gets to admire him and fuck him as an outsider would, all my-aren't-you-impressive, no burden of history, or present, or future-- Brucie's Nightwing, he doesn't have to worry about his safety because he's a *hero*, or the mistakes he might be making, and it's... well, fun.

And there's other stuff underneath that, sure, but all that stuff can be cheerfully put to one side while he's embracing his inner Brucie and encouraging Nightwing to embrace the outer one.

With Miles, he's aware of how people view him constantly, and he uses that a lot. He knows the freedom it gives him as well as the limitations. If he's embracing one particular bit of identity, he gets to ignore the normal limits he has on those traits and... well, forward momentum. Doesn't have to worry about people viewing him as crazy if he's being the craziest version of himself.

(And all of this is kind of making me want to see Miles Naismith being flirted with by... oh, maybe a Barrayan vormaiden on her study-abroad, throwing herself into the wider universe and stretching her wings could ask for, with his female top-officers and his Betan accent, the herm-maybe-lover and all the things about him, physical and otherwise, that would not be acceptable back home).

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Well, in canon I don't think we see men hitting on Benton, and yet he basically keeps them in their places when they do hit on Ms Fraser. Except for that teacher from the boys' school.

But yes, he's still using rulebooks from way too long ago when it comes to women. It's like fighting WWII from a pre-Napoleonic manual.

[elf]

*That's* the fic I kept trying to remember and getting distracted by Te's other fic! (I knew it was older, so I'd open a few fics in different tabs, and tell myself I was only going to read the first few paragraphs to figure out it was the right one... Next thing I know, I'm three stories into "The Angels You Need," which is very very not it, but it's not like I can just *stop* and stick to the standalones.)

[petra]

Yes, sometimes you just end up in the wrong story unable to get out for the next N pages. I understand.

But that one's pretty much identity porn + larping.

[melannen]

Yeah, um, some of those recs were awesome, but I am going to be weeding them pretty carefully, because some of them aren't really identity porn, at least the way I use it. Of course this is making me nervous about presenting my personal definition as the only one. It might be partly that I wasn't explaining the term well enough, but on the other hand, some of the recs I got that didn't read as identity porn to me actually had the term in their original headers, so I suspect the meaning is generalizing as it has spread. (Which is sad, and makes me want to do a post pushing my personal definition just to stop it. :P)

I feel like I should say something like: "Some random person having sex in a Batsuit probably isn't identity porn. Batman having sex in a Batsuit is sometimes identity porn, but isn't always. Brucie Wayne, Playboy, having sex in a Batsuit is always identity porn. Tony Stark having sex in a Batsuit might be identity porn, depending on how drunk he was at the time."

[brownbetty]

And it is definitely Identity Porn if he is having sex with Bruce Wayne.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Oh, THAT, I would so read Bruce Wayne having sex with Tony in a Batsuit.

[derryderrydown]

I WANT THIS STORY.

[melannen]

Oh, god yes.

I think it was one of the epic Bats/Supes identity porn fics where Superman goes, "Well, at least I'm the only person in the universe who's had sex with both Batman and Bruce Wayne," and Batman goes, "Technically true: Tony Stark's only had sex with Bruce and Iron Man has only had sex with Batman, and they're not from this universe anyway."

I kind of need an expansion on that bit, honestly.

[petra]

*splutters*

I never read any of the epics by people who identified their pairing as Bats/Supes, due to the fact that it became a Thing when I had waning interest in the fandom. That sounds amusing, though.

[petra]

Hey, presenting your personal definition after having an open discussion on the topic isn't *too* prescriptive.

Now I am desperately curious whether someone else has written Brucie Wayne having sex in the Batsuit. If you find it, link me?

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Why does semiotics make me think that there needs to be some Darren fic...

[petra]

Darren is never really enough someone else to work for me, identity porn-wise. He's mostly himself as hard as he can be.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

I suppose he doesn't have enough behind his mask to let it drop. Though he gets awfully close to having, something, in the R&J with the paint exercise.

[petra]

Yes, that's the only time he seems to have a soul. That, and when he's reflecting on the brief period of camaraderie with Geoffrey in the early Eighties.

Most of the time, he's the person he says he is.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

And sometimes he's even worse--see him going into the boardroom as the new artistic director.

[brownbetty]

Also, has Tw/W got a post on identity porn? (I feel identity porn needs a convenient shorthand in this discussion, but i.p. really does not work for me)

[petra]

At some point, twings asked me for a definition to add to the kink_wiki, and I was not useful. I don't remember a specific thing beyond that. On the other hand, this discussion is generating some great definitional material.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

idp? more fun than an independent development plan.

[mhari]

...I. Oh.

Where has this term been all my life?

[petra]

*coughs* On my journal where I've used it a lot? Though, yes, mostly in reference to superhero things.

[mhari]

Well, yeah, I cop to skimming the superhero stuff. Along with my entire flist, at times. I don't know, I'm sure I *saw* it, it just hadn't registered before.